Present:
Martin Forde KC, (MF) (Chair)
Abdurahman Sayed, (AS) Community representative
Michael Williams, (MW) LFB Community Forum
Adam Shaw, (AW), FBU
Sharon Warner, SW GMB
Willie Thompson, (WT) Community Representative
Niran Mothada, (NM) Greater London Authority
Ross Neil, (RN) Unison
Richard Jolley, (RJ) HMICFRS (representing HMI Roy Wilshere)
Kate Herbert, (KH), Local Government Association
In Attendance:
Andy Roe, (AR), LFB Commissioner
Bijel Thakrar (BJ) LFB Chief of Staff
Jerry Kirkby, (JK), LFB Programme Director – Culture Change
Bola Oladimeji, (BO) LFB Programme Manager – Culture Change
Tamsin Crook, (TC) LFB Business Change Manager
Aaron Conmee, (AC) LFB Project Manager
Uche Okwuosa, (UO) LFB Programme Support Officer
Basirat Sadudeen, (BS) LFB Programme Support Officer
The Chair welcomed Members to the fifth meeting of the LFB Advisory Panel and asked the Members to introduce themselves.
Apologies: HMI Roy Wilsher, Kathryn Billing, Althea Loderick, Ali Hay, Jaee Samant and Gareth Beeton.
Jerry Kirkby gave updates on actions from the last meeting and circulated the action update with the minutes.
Action – Jerry Kirkby to share action update with the minutes.
The Chair gave an update on discussions and events that have happened since the last panel. The Chair invited panel members from the community to share their thoughts on the Grenfell Tower Inquiry Part 2 Report.
Willie Thompson thanked the chair and was still considering the content of the report.
Micheal Williams stated that he appreciated that LFB took ownership for their failings unlike others who have failed to take responsibility for their part. He recognised that LFB had made a lot of changes. He referred to a recent Community Forum attended by the Commissioner just after the report's publication. He was interested to hear more about how LFB can better help disabled people in the community feel more confident should they find themselves in the same situation again. Michael Williams said this should never happen again and likes how the Commissioner is ready to have things in place to support.
Abdurahman Sayed said the community and he were not surprised with the finding of systematic dishonestly and incompetence. He did not believe the report contained anything the community did not already know. He stated the community wanted to see justice, both for institutions and individuals. It had been seven years, and they were still waiting. He stated that LFB had been open to challenges and had taken a progressive approach, which he welcomed. Others had not and there was a lot more for them to do. He questioned that seven years since the disaster whether lessons have been learnt. He added that people would love to see justice, especially those who have lost loved ones.
The Commissioner gave an update on Grenfell Tower Inquiry Part 2 Report. He had read the report as had other senior LFB staff. The Brigade were still considering the findings and recommendations. He tasked an initial gap analysis to be done to assess what was addressed following the Part 1 report and what more needed to be done. A more thorough analysis would need to be done on the content of the whole report, but the immediate focus was on the recommendations. He said he had undertaken to engage the community, especially those directly affected, before responding to the report and the recommendations. He had already met with the LFB Community Forum and welcomed their feedback and views. He and other senior colleagues had also appeared before the GLA’s Fire Committee. He had set a timeline for the gap analysis to be complete and proposed setting out LFB’s response within weeks.
He mentioned the three recommendations that referenced HMICFRS and inspection activity. He highlighted that the inspectorate had only recently, in July 2024, completed a full inspection of LFB. This inspection had included scrutiny of changes introduced to address the Part 1 recommendations including observing and assessing a fire survival guidance exercise.
He also acknowledged the read across from the Grenfell Tower Inquiry reports and the findings from the Culture Review both externally with community relations and internally about how the organisation operates, makes decisions, and follows through on improvements. He emphasised the importance of the Advisory Panel in this area and welcomes their continued scrutiny and support.
Abdurahman Sayed welcomed the update and thanked the Commissioner for providing the briefing. He stated that the community would like to hear from the Commissioner and offered to help facilitate such a meeting.
Willie Thompson also welcomed the update and undertook to assist in organising a meeting with Grenfell United members.
Members discussed the continued risk presented within London with building with cladding. The Commissioner confirmed that this remained a significant concern and risk that needed to be addressed. Following the Dagenham fire he had met with Angela Rayner, the Deputy Prime Minister and Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and Local Government, to discuss ongoing concerns. These concerns had also been raised during the Fire Committee.
Sharon Warner asked about behaviours, training, and culture within control. There was conversation about the control room and the Commissioner outlined the significant that had taken place within that environment. In response to a question from the Chair in relation to control staff training, he outlined the type of training that now takes place in relation to high rise incidents with control staff and operational fire fighters and incident commanders.
The Commissioner proposed members may wish to visit control to see the changes and speak with staff. A few panel members indicated their willingness to do this.
Jerry Kirkby proposed that this visit should take place prior to the next panel meeting and there be an agenda item to discuss their observations, similar to what had occurred following the visit to initial Fire Fighter training and speaking to delegates and trainers.
Action - LFC office to contact Abdurahman Sayed and Willie Thompson to arrange meetings on LFB’s response to the Grenfell Tower Inquiry Part 2 recommendations.
Action - Jerry Kirkby to arrange control visit for panel members prior to next meeting.
Jerry Kirkby gave an overview of the HMICFRS Misconduct thematic report. He updated that following an initial assessment LFB had completed eight of the 15 recommendations, four were partially complete and three required new action to address.
Jerry Kirkby requested the panel’s advice in relation to recommendation 13.
Richard Jolley, HMICFRS representative at this panel meeting, gave some context behind the recommendation 13. He mentioned certain requirements in the Grey Book regarding misconduct appeals which often resulted in chief officers having to hear these. Work conducted by the inspectorate indicated that panels may prove more effective and fairer.
Jerry Kirkby posed three questions to the panel members:
• Do any members have experience of panels for appeal hearings?
• If a panel approach is taken, what should be its composition?
• Do members support a panel approach?
The Chair advised that from his experience panels are normally odd numbers so a minimum of 3 persons would be required. They can include a legally qualified chair or a ‘lay’ person who was qualified in such matters.
Ross Neil advised that consideration should be given to the panel being independent and chaired by a senior officer from another fire and rescue service. He stated that the Brigade had previously considered a panel approach, but it was not progressed due to concerns regarding compliance with the Grey Book conditions. He stated a panel should not be discounted as previously there had been concerns regarding fairness and perceived interference.
Adam Shaw expressed concern about the feasibility of getting enough senior staff to sit on a panel. He referenced current delays in holding misconduct panels and appeals because of the lack of availability of senior staff and having a panel may mean this is even more difficult.
Richard Jolley stated that in an ideal world, having a panel is good practice and said those who have panels fine the approach better.
Sharon Warner emphasised the need to always consider the victim or complainant when making decisions. She thought insufficient consideration and support had previously been given.
Sayed Abdurahman stated that the panel should always include someone that has experience or expertise on the matter. He supports a panel approach and thought that the composition will depend on the type of case being dealt with.
Michael Williams supported the panel approach saying this seemed fairer and would provide a wider range of views.
Kate Herbert said LFB should ascertain what is the problem that the recommendation is seeking to address. She advised that LFB should factor in proportionality, consistency, and resource. If the panel were to be expanded to include members from outside the LFB, then there would need to be a selection process and training. From her experience this will involve planning and coordination so there are likely to be additional costs and resources needed.
Jerry Kirkby thanked the panel for their feedback and would provide this to LFB colleagues progressing this matter.
Sharon Warner raised concerns about the time misconduct investigations often took and the impact this had on all parties but especially the complainant.
Jerry Kirkby reminded the panel that at the last meeting, the panel endorsed the Key Performance Indicators that had been proposed for the Professional Standards Unit. These included measures on timeliness at various stages of the process. He offered to have an agenda item at the next meeting to report back on performance against the KPIs. The Chair and panel welcomed this.
Action – Programme team to have an agenda item on PSU Key Performance Indicators at the next meeting.
Jerry Kirkby presented an update on plans for the next staff survey. This was scheduled to commence in late October 2024. He reported that the intention had been to complete both Pulse and a full survey prior to now, however, HMICFRS surveys conducted as part of their Misconduct thematic and then their full inspection of LFB, meant the LFB surveys had to be delayed.
Jerry Kirkby presented the proposed timeline for analysis and it was agreed that the panel should consider the results in early 2025.
Suspensions
Ross Neil raised suspension and effects the prolonged time that some staff members were suspended had on their mental health and wellbeing. He raised a case where the person had been suspended for over a year. Jerry Kirkby offered to have an update on the suspension process and information on the duration of current suspensions brought to the next meeting. This was agreed.
Action: Programme team to have an agenda item on suspensions and duration at next meeting.
MS Teams meeting
Abdurahman Sayed asked about the possibility of the Advisory Panel meetings being hybrid, for example using MS Teams. Jerry Kirkby said the initial intention of the in-person meetings was for panel members spend time together and get to know each other. The Chair thought the panel was now established and supported the meeting having a MS Teams capability. The panel still encouraged members to attend in person wherever practical.
The next meeting of the LFB Advisory Panel is scheduled for the 4 November at 1pm until 3pm.