Present:
Martin Forde KC, (MF), Advisory Panel Chair & Barrister, 1 Crown Office Row (Chair)
Roy Wilsher, (RW), His Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary and Fire & Rescue Services
Niran Mothada, (NM), Executive Director of Communications and Strategy, GLA
Kathryn Billing, NFCC and Chief Fire Officer Cornwall FRS
Alasdair Hay, (AH), Independent Operational Assurance Advisor
Kate Herbert, (KH), Local Government Association
Willie Thompson, (WT), Community Representative
Gareth Beeton, (GB), Regional Chair, FBU
Ross Neal, (RN), Unison
Abdurahman Sayed, (AS), Community representative
Althea Loderick, (AL), Southwark Council
In Attendance:
Andy Roe, (AR) – LFB Commissioner
Jonathan Smith, (JS) – LFB Deputy Commissioner and Operational Director for Preparedness and Response
Jerry Kirkby, (JK) – LFB Programme Director – Culture Change
Gareth Liptrot, (GL) – LFB Professional Standards Unit
Tamsin Crook – LFB Business Change Manager
Dan Stern – LFB Commissioner’s Staff Officer
Aaron Conmee – LFB Project Manager
Uche Okwuosa – LFB Programme Support Officer
The Chair welcomed Members to the fourth meeting of the LFB Advisory Panel.
Apologies: Sharon Warner, Michael Williams, Jaee Samant and Sarah Gawley
It was noted that Althea Loderick had given her apologies for the previous meeting which had not been recorded. The minutes would be updated accordingly. The minutes of the meeting held on 26 April 2024 were then agreed as a correct record and the actions noted.
The Commissioner informed the panel of the appointment of Jules Pipe CBE as Deputy Mayor for, Planning, Regeneration and the Fire Service. and provided an update on the new Fire Committee which replaced the Fire Emergency & Planning Committee.
The Commissioner provided an update on HMICFRS inspection which was in progress and shared the strategic briefing that had been presented to the HMI the previous day. This would be circulated electronically with the minutes. The Commissioner emphasised the importance of inspection in driving improvements and standards across the Fire sector.
Action – Jerry Kirkby – Circulate HMICFRS strategic briefing to Panel members.
The Commissioner provided a detailed breakdown of the budget allocated to support culture transformation within LFB. He provided information of the budget growth approved for 2024/25 and also details of the existing budgets allocated for Privacy for All and the enhanced maternity policy provision.
The Panel welcomed the budget information and stated the importance of being able to monitor the spend of public funds to address the recommendations from the various reports. The Commissioner emphasised the budget growth and spend was directly associated with the recommendations from the Culture Review. He provided the examples of the growth in Equality, Diversity and Inclusion and Wellbeing stating he expected to see a return on this investment.
There was a discussion regarding the potential for using private healthcare to improve sickness rates where staff were waiting long periods for NHS treatment. The Commissioner stated LFB were open to exploring all options where there was a business case to support such action.
The Panel were positive about the amount of activity being conducted within LFB to improve the culture and enquired whether a longitudinal study was being considered to assess impact. The Commissioner reported that no such studies were being undertaken and this could be explored. There were measures and Key Performance Indicators in place for the programme, projects and workstreams which enabled the monitoring of progress.
Action – Jerry Kirkby – To consider the potential for a longitudinal study on the culture transformation process being conducted by LFB.
The Commissioner updated that the Grenfell Tower Inquiry had confirmed that its Phase 2 report would be published on 4 September 2024. The Commissioner reported that work was ongoing on a restorative justice approach and external expertise was being engaged. Willie Thompson commented that trust in LFB had grown significantly since the Grenfell Tower fire and encouraged the Brigade to continue with the work it was doing in relation to engaging with the community.
The next Advisory Panel meeting was scheduled for 12 September 2024 and the Panel requested an update be provided on the Phase 2 report and findings in relation to LFB.
Action – Jerry Kirkby – To arrange an update at the Advisory Panel meeting on 12 September 2024 in relation to the Phase 2 Grenfell Tower Inquiry report.
The Chair provided an update that earlier in the week he and five Panel members had visited Barking and Plaistow Fire Stations. The visits were positive. Panel members had received a briefing from Group Commander Joe Kenny and Assistant Commissioner Keeley Foster which covered the new extended training programme and support provided to trainees. The Panel asked for their thanks to be passed on to the staff who had hosted the visit. Panel members had the opportunity to speak to trainees who were open and spoke positively about their experiences.
Niran Motha stated she had enjoyed the visit and speaking to the trainees. She raised the distance that some trainees had to travel to the various training venues and the time this took. Some trainees booked hotel accommodation, but this involved additional expense. Ross Neal commented on the importance of recruiting people who lived in London both to reduce travel time and expense, but also so they were connected with the local community.
Panel members raised the importance of the transition from training to stations and joining watches. They acknowledged that Station Commanders were scheduled to visit the course trainees duringtheir last week. However, the Panel thought consideration should be given for trainees to visit the watches they were joining during the final two weeks of their training. This had been raised by the trainees.
Action – Deputy Commissioner Jon Smith – To raise with AC Keeley Foster the potential for trainees to visit their watches in the final two weeks of training.
Panel members were impressed with the support provided to trainees in relation to neurodiversity to ensure they were properly supported. The team supporting trainees with learning needst was small, fwith four or five staff, and they were looking after all trainees for about 18 months. This was estimated to be up to 300 trainees. The Commissioner stated that additional posts had been put into training and agreed that Deputy Commissioner Jon Smith would assess if this was adequate.
Action – Deputy Commissioner Jon Smith – To assess whether sufficient staff were available to support trainees with neurodiversity during their Firefighter Development.
Panel members also spoke to both Babcock and LFB trainers. The diversity of the trainers was commented upon, but Panel members raised concerns about the lack of visible diversity with the trainee cohorts. The Commissioner stated that the diversity of recruits had increased but more action was being taken.
Althea Loderick raised the opportunity presented by care leavers and using existing partnerships with the London Boroughs to provide careers pathways into LFB. Following discussion this was considered a proposal that should be followed up.
Action – Jerry Kirkby – To follow up with Althea Loderick and make the necessary connection with LFB HR recruitment in relation to care leavers and LFB careers.
Gareth Liptrot, the Head of LFB Professional Standards Unit, presented an update on the PSU, the measures being used to assess progress and the proposed Key Performance Indicators. He was interested in the Panel’s views on how the presentation of information could be improved and whether the right measures were being included.
The Panel provided feedback about how the data on the LFB and the HMICFRS staff surveys were being presented and how this could be improved. Gareth Liptrot agreed to incorporate this into the next version of presentation.
The importance of being able to compare was emphasised. The Panel suggested that while waiting for the next LFB survey alternative comparisons could be made with the civil service or other organisations. The Panel asked whether results from other Fire and Rescue Services could be obtained and although the questions may not be exactly the same, some would be similar and provide relevant comparisons.
Action – Jerry Kirkby – To explore obtaining staff survey results from other Fire and Rescue Services.
In relation to the data on protected characteristics, Althea Loderick pointed out the importance of assessing intersectionality. Gareth Liptrot agreed to look at how the data could be presented whilst complying with data protection requirements. The Panel welcomed the information and requested a further update in a few meetings time. The importance of timeliness of investigations was stressed and it was recognised the KPIs included this.
Due to time constraints, Panel members agreed to review the presentation in their own time and email Jerry Kirkby with any questions or comments.
The Chair asked whether pay pathways existed for staff in specialised roles. Deputy Commissioner Jon Smith confirmed that these were now in place.
The date of the next meeting is scheduled to take place on Thursday 12 September at 2pm.