Present:
Martin Forde KC, Advisory Panel Chair & Barrister, 1 Crown Office Row (Chair)
Roy Wilsher, His Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary and Fire & Rescue Services
Niran Mothada, Executive Director of Communications and Strategy, GLA
Alasdair Hay, Independent Operational Assurance Advisor
Michael Williams, Chair of LFB Community Forum
Gareth Beeton, Regional Chair, FBU
Sharon Warner, GMB
Sarah Gawley, Home Office
Ross Neal, Unison
Abdurahman Sayed, Community representative
In Attendance:
Jonathan Smith - LFB Deputy Commissioner and Operational Director for Preparedness and Response
Andy Roe - LFB Commissioner
Jerry Kirkby - LFB Programme Director – Culture Change
Bijel Thakrar - LFB Chief of Staff to the Commissioner
Maria Buck - LFB Programme team
Anna Flatley - Governance Manager
The Chair welcomed Members to the second meeting of the LFB Advisory Panel and in recognition of the anniversary of the New Cross Fire, the recent Grenfell Fire reflection week and the death of Chief Fire Officer Wayne Brown asked the Panel to observe a minute’s silence.
Following the minute’s silence Members of the Panel introduced themselves.
Apologies were received from Jaee Samant for whom Sarah Gawley was attending as a substitute, Kate Herbert, Althea Loderick and William Thompson.
The minutes of the meeting held on 3 October 2023 were agreed as a correct record and the actions noted.
The Chair reminded Panel Members to contact him with any comments on the Terms of Reference and made the following suggestions:-
a) That Panel meetings should be scheduled for every two months for a period of time rather than three to provide impetus with the aim of producing an interim report within nine months.
b) That consideration be given to ensure substitutes attend meetings when the substantive Panel Member is unable to do so.
The Chair provided a verbal update on the following areas which were discussed by the Panel.
Fire Station Visits. The Chair noted that he had recently visited Clapham and Lambeth Fire Stations and relayed the conversations he had had and the views expressed. He stated that the visits were informative and he recommended that other Panel Members do likewise. He noted that staff on the stations had been open and it was a useful way to gather more information on their views and assess progress made on cultural reform.
The Panel acknowledged that there was considerable differences between different fire stations and Members of the Panel were encouraged to visit a good spread of stations, including geographically. The importance of including control and other teams like fire safety and corporate services was also recognised.
The Commissioner added that senior leaders had undertaken and were continuing to undertake a series of engagement station visits and the test would be whether there was a change in attitudes before and after these visits.
ACTION – Jerry Kirkby to organise a programme of visits for Members of the Panel, ideally in pairs or groups, and this to include return visits to the same stations and watches.
The Panel then discussed some of the specific issues discussed at those fire station visits including training, promotion, wellness, as well as criticism of senior management to demonstrate some of the values and behaviours expected and the subsequent negative impact upon staff.
Institutional Racism - The Panel noted that whilst there were big differences between rural and urban fire and rescue services across England some fundamental issues were similar and in both areas, there had been considerable backlash to the fact that the fire service had been declared as institutionally racist.
The Chair noted that it was important to re-iterate that not everyone was labelled as racist but evidence showed that there was an endemic racist culture identified. He added that he was clear there was considerable professionalism within the LFB towards the public and this was not compromised by private views and this should be acknowledged. It was noted that the findings of the Independent Inquiry was not a judgement on operational competence. The Commissioner commented that celebrating success and progress should be approached with caution before change had been fully demonstrated.
Promotion - The Panel discussed whether certain groups of staff, including those who were neuro diverse, women and black and ethnic minorities were encouraged sufficiently to apply for promotion at the right time.
Generational Changes - The Panel then discussed the dynamics of watch culture and whether generational changes had an impact on the way in which these have changed, both on the incident ground and more widely. This was an area the Panel needed to explore more fully, particularly with regard the role of junior leaders and line managers within the organisation.
Training – The Panel discussed the deficiencies in training over the years and noted the steps already taken to improve this, including reversing the trend to reduce the length of the firefighter training course, which was currently 11 weeks and by April 2024 would be 16 weeks. There was now watch-based training and far more in person training. In addition, bespoke training had been introduced for junior officers for example in having challenging conversations.
The Chair suggested that training including that for initial recruits should be an area of particular focus for the Panel.
ACTION – The programme of visits to include initial recruit training.
Values
The Commissioner provided an update and PowerPoint presentation to the Panel on the LFB’s new values. He noted that previous attempts to address cultural issues had not been successful and referred to the feedback given to the Chair during his recent station visits.
The six new values were chosen by the organisation following extensive engagement with considerable numbers of staff. He added that the meanings behind the values were more important than the words themselves. It was noted that following the launch of these new values a wide reaching and extensive series of workshops were underway and a communication strategy in place.
The Panel noted that the values had been informed by the outcome of the Grenfell Fire which had driven change within the organisation. The Commissioner commented on the Grenfell Reflection week. He described some of the professionalism and courage displayed at Grenfell by staff whilst noting that the organisation’s culture had had a negative impact on decision making.
It was noted that the values would be regularly reviewed to ensure they remained relevant and be built into performance assessments and thereby individuals would be held to account.
ACTION – Jerry Kirkby – To distribute slides to all Members of the Panel.
Professional Standards Unit (PSU)
The Interim Head of Professional Standards Unit introduced a PowerPoint presentation on the development and implementation of the PSU. He outlined the rationale for the new PSU, the organisation structure and model intended for the PSU, the importance of LFB Values and associated behaviours; and the planned activity to incorporate and embed the PSU within the LFB; as detailed in the slides; which the Panel then discussed.
The Panel welcomed the introduction of the PSU noting that this was the first of its kind for a Fire and Rescue Service.
The Panel discussed the structure and challenged the split between operational and FRS groups of staff. Assurance was given that the PSU would work as a coherent group and this cohesion would be strengthened once all staff were fully trained. The PSU would have a focus on prevention as well as investigation.
It was noted that guidance had yet to be finalised and the PSU leadership were working in liaison with General Counsel on this. The Panel was assured that this guidance would include support processes to trigger wellness processes when required. There would also be pointers to support mechanisms, including a contact support person, for all staff affected, recognising that this can be a highly stressful experience.
The CFO Cornwall FRS noted that they had a system in place which provided support to both parties involved and undertook to share the details of this with the Interim Head of the PSU.
The likely level of caseload was discussed. It was noted that following the introduction of an external complaints procedure post-culture review the number of complaints rose significantly which indicated that staff did not trust the previous arrangements to investigate. The Panel noted that independence and confidentially was key. Complaints involving senior staff would be dealt with externally and a number of cases would be audited externally. It was noted that the HMICFRS had an Integrity Group and the PSU would form part of future inspections.
The Panel raised the measurement of success and the Head of PSU confirmed there would be key performance indicators on time taken for the various stages. There would be data collection on case numbers and monitoring for any trends or concerns.
The Panel then discussed the area of public disrepute and recognised social media was a particularly difficult area. It was noted that the LFC’s social media policy was in the process of being reviewed, and once this was finalised the PSU would bring forward proposals on how it would address issues relating to it. The Panel suggested that advice be sought from local community groups such as White Ribbon in finalising these procedures. This was welcomed and in addition it was noted that collaboration with other FRS and the NFCC was taking place.
Further to discussion it was noted that information would be collated, including outcomes of all discipline cases. The aim was to, wherever possible, take a proactive approach. It was noted that there was considerable work being undertaken in the area of trauma and counselling.
ACTION – Jerry Kirkby – To distribute slides to all Members of the Panel.
Due to time constraints it was agreed to that this item would not be considered and the Interim Chief HR Officer meet with the Chair separately and subsequently and decide what to bring to next meeting.
ACTION – Interim Chief HR Officer to arrange a meeting with the Chair and agree next steps.
1. The Chair noted that he was meeting with the Advisory Panel’s nominated Communications manager the following day and would discuss how to increase awareness of the Panel to the organisation. He was due to speak to the Top Management Group but that this had to be rescheduled. It was suggested that in addition consideration be given to the Chair meeting different groups of staff, such as Borough and Station Commanders.
2. Members of the Panel asked that a list of Members with contact details be circulated to all.
ACTION – Jerry Kirkby to circulate list.
The date of the next meeting is to be confirmed.